Podcast Episodes

Spirituality of the 9 Types

Episode #22 – Series Conclusion

Sandra and Chris reflect back on this first series of Heart of the Enneagram, sharing highlights from the first 21 episodes. The also reveal a funny outtake as well as plans for future episodes. 

Episode #21 – Spirituality of Type 1 with Michelle Voss Roberts

As Academic Dean and Professor of Theology at Wake Forest University School of Divinity, Michelle Voss Roberts trains a generation of leaders who approach religious diversity, gender, race, and disability with curiosity and respect. Her writing creates new inroads into traditional Christian doctrines. Her most current project, Body Parts: A Theological Anthropology (Fortress Press, 2017), develops an inclusive view of how humanity is created “in the image of God.” Michelle is grateful to share the adventure of life with her spouse, daughter, and golden retriever.

Episode #20 – Spirituality of Type 8 with Amy Greene

Rev. Amy Greene is the Director of Spiritual Care for the Cleveland Clinic, a large healthcare system with locations in several countries. She has a Master of Divinity from Union Theological Seminary at Columbia in New York City and a Doctor of Ministry from Ecumenical Theological Seminary in Detroit, Michigan. She has been a certified educator in the Association for Clinical Pastoral Education for 17 years, and is Chair-Elect of the Board of Directors for that organization. Amy “discovered” (i.e., was told by her entire peer group) that she was most like the Eight when first introduced to the Enneagram. At first dismayed, then resolved, then with acceptance, she began to claim her innate leadership gifts. She is married to Thomas Reuter, her best friend of 35 years, and they have two grown sons and a daughter-in-law. They also now have a puppy, Theo, who is teaching Amy to play more and not to bite.

Episode #19 – Spirituality of Type 9 with Guy Sayles

Guy Sayles served as a pastor for over thirty years, most recently at the First Baptist Church of Asheville, NC. He’s currently Assistant Professor of Religion at Mars Hill University, an adjunct faculty member at the Divinity School of Gardner Webb University, a consultant with the Center for Healthy Churches, a member of the Board of Directors of the Baptist Center for Ethics, and transitional pastor at Calvary Baptist Church in Asheville. He is married to Anita Plunkett Sayles, also an ordained Baptist minister, and they have two grown children. His theological education includes a Doctor of Ministry from the Candler School of Theology of Emory University. He blogs at FromTheInstersection.org.

Episode #18 – Spirituality of Type 7 with Molly Bolton

Molly Bolton is the Medical Intensive Care Unit chaplain at a large hospital in Cleveland. She received her Master of Divinity from Wake Forest School of Divinity and is pursuing ordination in the United Church of Christ.

Molly is passionate about poetry as a tool for healing and is curious about the overlap of spiritual practice and justice-making.

Episode #17 – Spirituality of Type 5 with Lawrence Womack

The Rev. Lawrence Womack is a spouse, parent and serves others as an ordained minister. He currently serves as the Rector of St. Augustine’s Episcopal Church in Brooklyn, NY. He loves to read and enjoys solitude – time for each is always on short supply. He has training as a scientist and enjoys human-created spaces (cities) as much as spaces that no human devised (nature), experiencing the mysteries of life in all its forms and functions and is ever-fascinated with the creator beyond the created and how that point of reference joins all life.

Episode #16 – Spirituality of Type 6 with Debbi Horton

Debbi Horton, M.A., loves teaching the Enneagram! She holds 3 Enneagram teacher certifications and is the President of MN-IEA (the Minnesota Chapter of the International Enneagram Association). She is also a Spiritual Director and serves on the board at Christos Center for Spiritual Formation. She lives in St. Paul, MN with her husband John and their adorable dog, Charlie!  Contact her at www.debhorton.com.

Episode #15 – Spirituality of Type 4 with John Amen

John Amen is the author of several collections of poetry, including strange theater, a finalist for the 2016 Brockman-Campbell Award. His latest collection, Illusion of an Overwhelm, was released by New York Quarterly Books in April 2017.

John founded and continues to edit The Pedestal Magazine. He has been studying the Enneagram for twenty years, and he and his wife, Mary Powers, offer workshops and interviews in Charlotte, NC.

Episode #14 – Spirituality of Type 2 with Mary Beth Gwynn

Mary Beth Gwynn has facilitated soul work for over 25 years, coming to this work through experiencing for herself the soul’s tremendous power for healing and transformation. In addition to training in soul work, she has a MBA in finance, has lived and taught in Bangkok, Thailand, served as acting director for a law school library, worked on the business side of a major metropolitan newspaper, and served as assistant to the VP of Communications at a national media company.

Mary Beth resides in Asheville, NC with her husband. They have three adult children. She gardens, takes frequent hikes in the mountains around her home, and is a beekeeper who is “kept by her bees.”

Episode #13 – Spirituality of Type 3 with Gerry Fathauer

Gerry Fathauer retired as the Arts and Cultural Director for the City of Mesa after 30 years in arts management. She oversaw the building and opening of the $97M Mesa Arts Center for performing and visual arts in 2005, and in 2006 was recognized by her peers with the Governor’s Arts Award.

The owner of Gerry Fathauer LLC, Gerry is an aura intuitive who accesses the body’s wisdom to release energetic blockages and provide insights to help people attain greater wellbeing with Energy Awareness Healing. She is also an Enneagram coach and teacher, certified through Ginger Lapid-Bogda and Enneagram Studies in the Narrative Tradition, respectively.

A past president of the Enneagram Association in the Narrative Tradition, Gerry currently serves on the board of Enneagram Studies in the Narrative Tradition. She was a founding director of the Arizona Enneagram Association and was a columnist for the Enneagram in Business Newsletter in 2012.  

Gerry has a Master’s degree in Arts Administration from Indiana University and Bachelor’s degree in music performance from DePauw University. A student of yoga and QiGong, Gerry resides in Cleveland, Ohio where she enjoys hobbies in piano and dance.

Episode #12 – Introduction to Enneagram and Spirituality

Chris & Sandra introduce the second series in their podcast, Heart of the Enneagram, focusing on the spiritual dimensions of the 9 types.

Habits and Patterns of the 9 Types


Episode #1 – Introduction

Chris & Sandra introduce their new podcast, Heart of the Enneagram, to take a deeper dive into the the powerful tool for personal and spiritual growth. They talk about their journey with the Enneagram and their plans for the podcast and companion book.



Episode #2 – Three Centers of Intelligence

Sandra and Chris talk about the three centers of intelligence in the Enneagram: heart, head, and body, and how each type reflects the centers.


Episode #3 – Type 3 with Drew Jones

Drew Jones, executive director of Climate Interactive, talks about the habits and patterns of type 3.

Jones is Co-Founder and Co-Director of Climate Interactive, named the 2017 “Best U.S. Energy and Environment Think Tank” by Prospect Magazine. An expert on international climate and energy issues, his quotes and data stories appear frequently in the New York Times, The Washington Post, and other media.

Trained in system dynamics modeling at Dartmouth College and through a M.S. at MIT, Jones has worked at Rocky Mountain Institute and served dozens of clients ranging from the CDC to Harley-Davidson Motor Company.

He teaches Systems Thinking and Sustainability at MIT, Stanford University and UNC Chapel Hill’s Kenan Flagler Business School.

Drew lives with his family in the mountains of Western North Carolina, where he loves to strum his guitar, flow down rivers, and grow killer tomatoes.

Episode #4 – Type 2 with Anna

Anna is a Licensed Clinical Social Worker who serves as a psychotherapist and Stress Management Consultant to patients at Duke Executive Health and Signature Programs at Duke University’s Medical Center.  Anna’s  lifelong passion is the human relationship and above all, the innate capacity human beings possess to move towards vitality in life.  Anna resides in Durham, NC and enjoys any of the following in whatever combination: family, friends, food, music, conversations, movies, hanging out by a body of water. 

Episode #5 – Type 4 with Jean Sexton

Since 2012, Jean Sexton has served as Editorial Manager for Biltmore’s marketing department. In this role, Jean is responsible for writing and editing marketing communications and blog posts for Biltmore Wines, For Your Home, Ambassador magazine and other collateral for the Passholder program, and Quintessential magazine for the estate’s two hotels. In addition, Jean provides support for corporate and employee communications, public relations, and social media marketing.  

Prior to joining Biltmore in 2001 as Speakers’ Bureau Coordinator, Jean was the Non-English Speaking Services Coordinator for the Asheville-Mountain Area Chapter of the American Red Cross. She worked as the Red Cross representative for seven western counties and was active as an International Humanitarian Law Instructor for the National Chapter of the American Red Cross.  

Jean received her undergraduate degree in Cultural Anthropology with a minor in Spanish from UNC-Asheville and a Masters degree in Management and Leadership from Montreat College. She is a published author whose work has appeared in a variety of outlets including Wild River Review, Appalachian Heritage, WNC Woman, and NC Journal of Medicine. She won the O. Henry Prize for Short Fiction in 2000, and her personal blog reflecting life as a Southern writer has been online since 2008.

Episode #6 – Type 6 with Mirais Holden, JD

Mirais, a practicing attorney in New Orleans who leads with type 6 on the Enneagram, has been working with the Enneagram system for 6 years, and she is certified in Enneagram Personality Assessment. Mirais also leads workshops teaching Ontological Awareness for a Louisiana company called Education for Living.  Work focusing on deepening self-awareness has her heart.


Episode #7 – Type 5 with Brian Hayes

Brian’s vocational passion is to empower adolescents to discover and embrace who they are. A graduate of the Wake Forest University School of Divinity, Brian has considerable experience enacting this work in the world through youth ministry. Following a slight career shift, he is now pursuing a master’s degree in counseling at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro with the goal of serving as a middle or high school counselor. Brian currently resides in Greensboro with his spouse of five years, Rylee, and their son, Bennett.

Episode #8 – Type 7 with Vicki Banks

Vicki Banks first joined the Biltmore Estate Human Resources team in 2000 and currently has primary responsibility for the coordination, administration and supervision of Biltmore’s employee benefits programs, including health, dental, life and disability insurances; 401(k) plan, executive benefits, pension plan, FMLA, LOA, ADAA, employee assistance, wellness and workers compensation programs. The Employee Relations, Lodging HR and Risk Management teams are also led by Vicki.  In addition, she is responsible for company compensation programs and the HR IT areas, which includes the estate’s wage and salary program, HR administration, payroll, data integrity, performance management, ESC/EEOC processes and more. As of March 2012, the Company introduced ‘The Clinic on Biltmore Estate’ provided through a partnership with a local family medical practice. Vicki assumes oversight for this benefit.

In addition to these responsibilities, Banks oversees the Human Resources departmental budget and strategic planning objectives for her areas of responsibility.  She also provides leadership for coaching, counseling and disciplinary actions across the Company, and works closely with the executive leadership team to resolve any legal or policy concerns that affect Biltmore Company.  As a company, Biltmore is dedicated to developing “Habits of Health, Habits of Safety and Habits of Happiness” in conjunction with its core values and ethics. Maintaining a culture of hospitality, teamwork, leadership and integrity is important to the mission of Biltmore, which seeks to preserve the estate as a privately owned, profitable working estate.  Banks continues to be a popular speaker, consultant and panelist for Human Resources-related organizations and groups.

Originally from Pennsville, New Jersey, Banks was awarded a B.A. at Hofstra University in Long Island, New York, where she earned a field hockey scholarship and was a member of the East Coast Conference All Star Team.  She was also a member of the Hofstra softball team. In 1995, Vicki made her way to the Asheville area. Vicki has also been awarded with the SPHR certification through the Society for Human Resources Management and the SHRM Senior Certified Professional certification (SHRM – SCP), while currently pursuing her Masters of Law through Wake Forest School of Law.

Episode #9 – Type 9 with Joy McIver

Joy McIver is a practicing attorney in Western North Carolina. She became interested in the Enneagram more than 10 years ago as a tool for understanding herself and how she relates to others. Joy initially mistyped herself as leading with Type 2, but upon further reflection she recognized she indeed leads with Type 9. She now truly enjoys the deeper insight and guidance the Enneagram system provides in her personal and professional development.

Joy grew up in central Kentucky as the youngest of four children in a fairly traditional household. She has over twenty years of experience as a litigation attorney in Western North Carolina, representing clients in civil court matters. Currently she specializes in the practice of marriage and divorce law. Joy is certified as a mediator in North Carolina for civil Superior Court matters. Additionally, she has obtained training in the growing area of Collaborative Law which also seeks to resolve disputes by agreement of the people involved instead of decisions by the court system.

Episode #10 – Type 8 with Brian Ammons

Brian Ammons is the Beeson Chaplain and Director of Spiritual Life at Warren Wilson College, near Asheville, NC.  Much of his work these days focuses on interfaith dialogue, vocational discernment, and disrupting the artificial divide between the secular and sacred in a world of increasing “nones.”  He holds a PhD in Curriculum and Cultural Studies, and has taught, written, and spoken on the intersection of spirituality and sexuality, particularly around rethinking the conversations around including LGBTQ+ people in the church in order to invite richer conversations around sexuality for all peoples. Brian also works alongside his husband, Gareth Higgins, leading retreats and planning festivals.

Episode #11 – Type 1 with Joyce Hollyday

Joyce Hollyday lives gratefully with her partner and two dogs on a mountain ridge in Western North Carolina, above a garden and next to hiking trails. She is a founding co-pastor of Circle of Mercy, an ecumenical faith community in Asheville. The author of several nonfiction books, Joyce is currently at work on a novel based on her mother’s journey with Alzheimer’s disease. Her life is greatly enriched by her connections with undocumented women, who are both helping her to improve her Spanish and teaching her about hope and resilience. In all things, Joyce faces her #1 tendencies toward perfection and judgmentalism, and is thankful for the mellowing that comes with age.

Her blog can be found at www.joycehollyday.com



Podcast Reviews

I’ve been listening to the podcasts and enjoying them very much! My gosh, they sound so professional, in terms of the quality of the recording and Sandra and Chris and their interchanges. But at the same time, they are really warm and endearing—so much so that I find myself starting to comment aloud as if it were a conversation I am actually part of. 

– Ronda Redden Reitz, Knoxville, TN

I have begun listening to your podcasts and using the journal book and am very grateful for what it already has meant to me. Can’t pin a metal on the wind and other life-giving handles to grab onto.  

– Bobbie Wrenn Banks, Atlanta, GA

I have been listening to the podcast (and of course giving it a great review on iTunes), and I am blown away. It is absolutely WONDERFUL. These kinds of conversations fill such a deep need in the Enneagram community, and I am honored to be a part of it. Thank you both very much. I hope you feel proud and accomplished, as you should!

– Mirais Holden, New Orleans, LA

Heart of the Enneagram Podcast is a great next step tool once you and your coworkers have been typed. It helps you to take a deeper dive into understanding the different Enneagram types through first person accounts of those who share the same character structures as you  or someone you may know. The back and forth dialogue between Sandra, Chris and the guests makes it easy to relate to the first-person perspective of other types, as well as your own type. I hope we continue to see more of these podcasts in the future!

– Tyler Miller, Manager, Asheville, NC

Thanks for letting me know of your wonderful new podcast and book. I’ve listened to a number of the podcasts already and will be highly recommending them to my Enneagram interviewees and students. I love how you honor the Narrative Tradition and Helen and David’s respectful approach to the spiritual journey while also adding your own unique touches!

– Bernie van Dort, Midland, MI